OK. My friend on his tumblr has some harsh words for Creationist and religion in general.


Anyway it got my mind going and this is my riff of a reply since tumblr restricts how long a comment can be, so here goes. It is all off the top of my head so it is obviously not really thought out.


Smart religious people don’t put so much stock in myths like this. They find ways to still believe their religion while not ignoring science. Most, I think, compartmentalize the two competing world views, which I find a bit psychotic at best and intellectually weak and dishonest at worst.  The ones who are both smart and honest discard their religion, or become deists or something similarly vague.

It seems to me that your argument really means that a smart religions person an oxymoron. No? And from that I deduce there is a problem in definitions, how do you define religion and smart?

I'll set aside the smart thing because...well I ain't so smart. SOoooo...My current improvisation is that religion is not a thing but a force that is is an integral part of the human Psyche. Of course if you are a total empiricist, the human psyche is as much a phantom as religion and is another stupid human vanity. But if we accept it then the thought experiment progresses.

I posit that Religion is something important to humans and no matter what, it comes out in some form. For instance I once read that the “Beat” experience of the the 1950's was not a literary or philosophical expression but a religious one. And the same could be said of the Punk world. Both were an attempt to access life at its core. Not a concept or even an idea, but the experience life itself. Pure living.

I once heard someone say the “enlightenment was like falling in love” . The point is almost everybody has experienced falling in love, and it is something that defies logic. So if you only accept logic you deny love, religion and ultimately anything not measurable.

The deal is there are not two opposing world views, there are thousands of different world views from wildly different people trying to figure things out.

So is life more than simple calories and creature comforts? Are all metaphors for living, “just” metaphors? Are things like poetry and literature actually humans taking a stab at understanding themselves and others, or just an entertainment?

I saw the HPO show “Questioning Darwin ” and I like that one scholar said if Darwin met some creationists he would not rail at them but talk to them and try to understand. I see that as the real point. Not rating who is smart and dumb but understanding why they think that way and what they get out of it. AND perhaps are we falling into the same patterns?

But that is just an offhand riff I came up with after reading your tumblr.


I think this comes back to my  Grand Theory of Everything, so I didn't want to drop it.

Ref#...I forget


Bob said...

Those are all good thoughts, Dave. I tend to exaggerate when I write these rants. One of my other friends recently pointed out that science and religion both fail when they claim to have all the answers, and I would concur with that. I will admit that I get a bit to worked up by the creationists though. I don't know why -- that stuff just really gets under my skin. Truth is, I don't care too much what people believe about this stuff because, operationally, on a day to day basis it doesn't make a lot of difference. I just wish they'd stop trying to get creationism in the schools. That bothers me a lot.

ZeppoManx said...

Go for it dude! The good part of blogging type of thing is that people actually say what mean, and it can be refreshing.

In my fantasy world people present arguments and then defend them from challenges. And while it is not likely anybody will change the mind of another, you can at least narrow down when the difference lies at it core.

My take is that religious people should just acknowledge it is not "logical", and go from there. Own it! There is so much about life that is not logical.

Ironically Fundamentalist take the spiritual" and make into something material.

Bob said...

Dave, I totally agree. If some is religious and they just say "I know it isn't logical, but I believe it anyway. That's just what I think", the as far as I'm concerned it is case closed.

My most recent post on concretelunch.info is more indicative of my real feelings about religion, but essentially it is that people are just trying to make sense of the world. Everyone has their own way.

Bob said...

I think that even for a religious believer, "I don't know" should be a perfectly valid answer. One doesn't need to explain the problem of evil by saying "we just don't understand God's plan", or whatever. Just say "I don't know". That is good enough for me.

ZeppoManx said...

I think the religious person also has to take the next step and present something like "I know it isn't logical but There is this (something more)...." What that next thing is, is the really hard part.

But from the non believer's view I think you have to be just as harsh in a self reflective way. There are a lot of great feeling emotion crutches the atheist can use but they are just as non-measurable as any religious assertion.

I one is going to discount things that can't be proven, then you have to admit that art, literature, music,ethics or whatever, are nothing more than diversions. Basically they all made up just like religion.

Or something like that. I only had a few minutes during a break and came up with this spontaneously. I hope I can remember to come back to it and flesh it out.

ZeppoManx said...

Scratch what I wrote in the comment above. I really missed it.

I worked up another post in reply to the comments